The Unsure Entrepreneur

Andrew Jenkins Interview

The Unsure Entrepreneur Episode 01

Wed, Mar 13, 2024 12:32PM • 38:43

SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Andrew Jenkins, Voltera, social media, social selling, entrepreneurial journey, e-commerce, strategy consulting, social networks, retainer-based, content creation, predictable revenue, outsourcing, personal branding, LinkedIn training, business model

SPEAKERS
Andrew Jenkins, Roger Pierce

Roger Pierce 00:02
Hello and welcome. My name is Roger Pierce, and you're listening to the unsure entrepreneur Podcast. I'm thrilled to introduce Andrew Jenkins, my first guest, hello, Andrew.

Andrew Jenkins 00:14
Hello, thanks for having me.

Roger Pierce 00:15
Great to have you here. I gotta give them a bit of your background so we know what we're talking to. Sure Andrew longtime friend is CEO of voltera, social professional services firm specializing in social media and social selling strategies. He's based here in Toronto, Canada. And he's the former head of social media strategy for Royal Bank, and has worked with a diverse list of companies in North America and Europe, including CIBC, Rogers, and Bell. He's a regular international speaker and a panelist at numerous industry conferences and events. And he teaches a course on social media strategies for the enterprise and the University of Toronto School of Continuing Studies. And most recently, he's the author of the book, social media marketing for business, scaling and integrated social media strategy across your organization. Wow. Welcome. Welcome, Andrew.

Andrew Jenkins 01:09
Thank you, great to be here.

Roger Pierce 01:11
And we look forward to your insight. So as you know, our aim here today is to get to you get to get you to share rather your personal journey into entrepreneurship, and your experiences starting and running a successful business so that other aspiring entrepreneurs can better understand the path to opening a business and what life is really like, as an entrepreneur. We want the nitty gritty. So just a heads up, I'm going to poke and prod you a bit to get to the good stuff.

Andrew Jenkins 01:39
Okay, I've been warned.

Roger Pierce 01:43
There, we've got just 30 minutes together, so please keep your answers brief as possible. And let's get into it. Sounds good. So let's go to the origins of Andrew and Volterra. Rent voluntary social, what inspired you to start this business and how did the journey begin?

Andrew Jenkins 02:03
Well, it was sort of organic. And actually, it was Volterra is my second foray into entrepreneurship. But the first attempt bares some influence on it. I started my own e commerce company selling menswear on the internet in 1995. I had finished film school in 1993, and a friend of mine from film school was building websites. And it's and the internet was just emerging then. And I saw something in this emerging internet and websites. And I was intrigued. And so fast forward to 95, I had worked in the film and television industry for a bit and it wasn't, wasn't getting the traction that I was hoping for. But I saw this internet thing. And I was like, huh, it struck my curiosity. And so with two other people, we started this ecommerce business selling menswear on the internet. But it was this was 1995. I like to call it 1995 Bg before Google, because Google hadn't come out yet. And taking credit card transactions over the web was foreign territory, even for the banks, they were reluctant to back those sorts of activities. So after a year and a half of just money going out and not much money coming back in, shut it down. But what I learned from that whole process led to working for ecommerce software companies and just diving into the deep end of the emerging internet and ecommerce. And that has led to my staying in the internet and technology space for now. Soon to be 30 years. Fast forward to 2008. I'm coming off a three year stint at Bell Canada in wireless technologies, again, still in the technology space. And I had always wanted to get into strategy consulting after I finished my MBA. And a friend had an opportunity for me to do a management consulting project. That was my first sort of validation of being paid for, you know how I think and then never looked back. But the next project after that initial consulting engagement was another consulting engagement, but it had some research embedded in it. And that was with the National Endowment for science, technology and the arts are Nesta in the UK. And I was hired to do research on all of the predominant social networks at that time in 2008. Some may recall that Facebook was not number one, then MySpace was, and MySpace doesn't even exist anymore. So it shows just speaks to the changing landscape. So that first project was the catalyst to all the work that we do now in in social media. And the last thing I'll say about it is it evolved from that research engagement, to doing strategy engagements for social media. And after a series of those engagements where we would go in and do some situational analysis, make strategic recommendations, and then watch clients not execute, or do it quite poorly, or be challenged to execute themselves. We said, Would you like us to do it for you if it was priced appropriately? And they said, Oh, could you and that has how, again, this wasn't written down in a business plan. This speaks to the organic nature that I described earlier. That's how our business has evolved to predominantly being retainer based, outsourced social media management, because a lot of companies don't have the skill set in house, or simply just do sufficient resources. And so we come in as an extension of their marketing team.

Roger Pierce 06:19
And I mean, you are my go to guy and a lot of people's go to guy for social media, and increasingly AI expertise, Andrew, but thank you for becoming a side hustle on that, can you give me an insight, and give me an example of exactly the kind of work you do for a client, so the audience understand?

Andrew Jenkins 06:36
Sure. So we'll and to clarify, we only do social, we don't build websites, we don't do anything to do with SEO, we don't do email marketing. Not that there's anything wrong with those, we've just chosen to do one thing and do it very well. And as well, we found most organizations where they're challenged from a digital marketing standpoint, it's with respect to social media, because social is always on, you have to be dealing with it every day, you build a website, that's a project, SEO, you know, that that can be predominantly a project with a little bit of tweaking after the fact, email marketing, unless you're a major, you know, a big box retailer, you're probably not sending out emails to your customer base or prospect base every day, the socials on every day. And that's where most companies fall down on the the ability to establish and maintain a social presence and creating and distributing content on a daily basis. So we focus on creating content for them curating third party content, trying to help them work smarter, rather than harder. So that, you know, if we're writing a blog, we write a couple of blogs a month for clients, we might have a 30 minute conversation over zoom, we'll we'll record that conversation. And so we're like to say we're killing three birds with one stone. The interview rules will help us create blogs from the discussion, we can take from the video and the audio, we can create video clips and audio grams as well. So suddenly, I have multiple formats of content from a 30 minute conversation with a client. And that all that's the only burden of their time was was the 30 minutes.

Roger Pierce 08:26
I love it. I love how efficient you are with these things, you know, a 30 minute interview, and you're slicing and dicing all these different pieces of content.

Andrew Jenkins 08:33
Well, content is the beast that must be fed.

Roger Pierce 08:38
So True. Back to what you said earlier, and I think this is a lesson for anyone out there thinking of starting a business is you were very clear in your introduction and explanation about what you don't do. You know, we don't do this. We don't do marketing. We don't do Prager, Ryan, you're very clear in folders. What's the power in that? Well, how how was that a good thing for a new small business?

Andrew Jenkins 08:57
Well, let me clarify that by saying we came to that not we came to that conclusion or that circumstance through a lot of mistakes. The the acronym ATM anything for money? There have been numerous digital projects that we've done. Oh, can you do this? Yeah, we can do that. Or yes, because it meant making payroll or it meant, you know, my bills were paid that month because and the other thing to think about is I used to do a lot of projects where and you would sell a project execute, get paid and then you had to turn your attention to business development to land the next project. So you had this hills and valleys of revenue. And so, gradually use you learn through the the abuse of entrepreneurship And that, the sooner you can get to Predictable Revenue. And this is how we arrived at retainer based. So we now are to the point where the bulk of our revenue is predictable, I sign a contract, whether with a client, and they are coming into a minimum of six months with us. Because the social even with SEO and building websites, and so on, it takes six months before you really are up and running and have an impact. And if the client isn't written doesn't have the patience for that, then it's probably not a good fit for us. But, you know, early on, yeah, we was going from project to project to project and all the volatility and stress related to that. Now to the point where we have retainer based clients. We have some clients that had been with us for multiple years, that we continue to service with content on a monthly basis. But also, we report on the impact we've had, so that we're proving the value that we're providing.

Roger Pierce 11:09
So many things are to unpack, and I love it all, because you're a great illustration of a successful entrepreneur. For people that don't understand this, remember, some people for someone listening might go won't cash flow and retainer clients. What's it? What's the value in that and I know, coming from a project, paste marketing agency stupidity, explain the power of that retainer, and the cash flow and consistent revenue.

Andrew Jenkins 11:37
So I used to run I used to teach entrepreneurship and business model design at OCAD University and other university here in Toronto, before I was teaching at the University of Toronto. And periodically, we would run a workshop, myself and another teaching colleague there for the master's students that were graduating from a master's program in strategic foresight and design, because many of them would hang out a shingle as a consultant. And we will come to a section on our presentation, and I refer to it as no your number. And I would work it back saying there are 365 days in a year, take away the weekends and X number of weeks that you want to have a vacation. That's the number of days that you can be selling, and the number of days that you could be delivering on what you've sold if you work consultant or doing any project base. And so that's like 200, and some days to 12 or something like that. And then you figure out okay, so how much do I want to make in a given year? Okay, so let's say it's just $100,000 for easy math. That means I have to Bill X, whatever, you know, do the math, X amount of dollars per day to meet that gross revenue. And so suddenly, the picture becomes clearer like, oh, well, you're not going to be delivering every single day because you got to be selling, right? Or you're doing double duty. Yeah. And suddenly, you realize, oh, that means that if I'm only delivering 50% of the time, that means I have to double what I'm charging on the days I'm delivering. And unless you do this sort of back of the napkin math, you can undersell. And side note, recently, my son helped a friend of his who had left nursing to start her own cake baking business, deliver a cake that took an hour to drive to deliver it. And anyway, probably ended up losing $200 on selling a cake based on the time it took. And my son was the one who drove her to deliver it. Not counting his time, the gas, like he just did it as a gesture. And it's like, you know, we've all made those mistakes where we didn't do the math. And so that's one of the reasons we went the retainer based. And we've gradually raised our fees over the years. And you have to think about it. So if I've got someone in front of their computer and managing social media for one client, well, I can add up to a point without burning them out, or you exceeding their capacity. There are some economies of scale to gain. And that enabled us to our value proposition is that we're providing enterprise grade tools and methods as an SME or small business price point, or less than a full time headcount. I almost want it to be a bit of a no brainer for our clients like you can't hire someone for what we're charging to get a full eight Agency. Now for those that may be listening, who are worried about, oh, I'm taking someone's job. That's not what I'm talking about. Some, oftentimes companies can afford early on, they need marketing, but they can't afford a full time person. So we're a solution for that. We're also our solution when we have a client that is a corporation with like, 4000 people. But there's only 12 people in their marketing department, because there are 4000 person company built from AD acquisitions. And so the 12 people in the marketing department, all they're doing, and I shouldn't say all they're doing I don't mean to diminish, they're, they're overseeing all of their agency relationships, because they don't have the capacity for their own internal execution. And so that's how we extend their bench strength. So anyway, to sum it all up, figure out your value proposition, what you can offer, and where you fit in, and how you can articulate that to prospective clients. We tried to go in and not fit, make anyone feel like we're there to take someone's job. We position ourselves as we're additional Ben strings for your digital marketing resources, then we want to make the look successful.

Roger Pierce 16:17
I love it. And you had another topic, we could talk for hours about this stuff. But outsourcing that as a huge trend has gone on for decades now. And that's the economy, entrepreneurs need to realize that you don't have to develop a full service agency, you can come up with some level of service that helps people out who don't want to maybe hire internally or don't have the bandwidth to do it themselves. Right? I

Andrew Jenkins 16:37
don't have anyone on payroll. They're all you know, I wouldn't say dedicated, but their key, their core team that I've worked with for a number of years. And we do paid social media campaigns, but we don't do it every day. So I'm not going to have someone just sitting around twiddling their thumbs waiting for the next paid campaign. Yeah, I love it. But I have my go to person that, you know, once a quarter Hey. So and so I'm applying the same methodology that I'm hoping my clients are applying, which is you pull in the talent when you need it and pay appropriately.

Roger Pierce 17:19
And it's such a such a great business model. And I love the fact that you're charging a retainer. I'm big fan of subscription based businesses or retainer based businesses. That's the That's what every app in the world does, right? It's subscription. Everyone wants that kind of model. Revenue, predictable cash flow. That's how you build a business, isn't it? Well, selfishly.

Andrew Jenkins 17:39
When and if I ever choose to sell the business, it will sell based on contracted revenue. My brother ran their landscaping business for 20 plus years, it was hugely successful. But his contracts went to zero every year because the receives no contracts. Right? Right. So great when it was running, and people knew consistently well, you know, Dave's going to show up every spring to sign the new and he had corporate clients that, you know, they they did salting and snow plowing during the winter. And then they would do grass cutting and landscaping and like groundskeeping in the in the summer, but when it came to selling the business, it was selling the equipment. That was it, because the read all the contracts had reset to zero. And that's not, you know, it's not like his mistake he had made that was just the nature of the that kind of business. And so I look at, you know, I want to have a portfolio of long standing clients that when if someone wanted to acquire the business, like, okay, there's a reasonable forecasted revenue that they can anticipate if they wanted to take it over.

Roger Pierce 18:54
Very smart. I love it. So on the subject of money, can you share with us how you got the funds together to get the business going?

Andrew Jenkins 19:02
So funded?

Roger Pierce 19:04
Okay, just your personal savings?

Andrew Jenkins 19:06
Well, yeah, just you sold the first contract and it was lucrative enough, and then just, I'll be fully transparent, like having being married and having a partner that could help smooth out some of the spikes. But in fully transparent it there, there were numerous periods of time that were highly stress, wondering where the next project was going to come from and paying bills and so on. But and if you're nature if you're not like, I suspect I might have ADHD. And that can be that's a that's a blessing in some ways for entrepreneurship. But it can also be a hindrance for other aspects of an entrepreneur in terms of where or you put your attention. And so that can translate to, you know, having some implications on your revenue and your management of money. So, you know, you need to be, spend some time and reflect on your attitude and mindset about money. And I've arrived organically the situation I met where I've got a nice sizable stream of recurring revenue. But it was bumpy. I won't lie. It was bumpy getting here.

Roger Pierce 20:35
And it's, I love that conversation, because you don't you know, I tell entrepreneurs, when I've ever talked to upstarts, you don't need $100,000, unless you're trying to open up a store or something silly or a restaurant, which is not a good idea. But you know, you don't need a ton of money to get going into business. Some entrepreneurs can't go in with a consulting firm for less than $1,000, right? Yeah, a computer and a phone and the internet.

Andrew Jenkins 20:57
And when you go on a website, if you've got, you know, you can, I'm about to launch a new line of business. And I'm slapping up a single web page, to have people into introduce the concept of the business, and asked people to sign up for the waiting list. Just to get a gauge of interest, I can get a logo made for less than, you know, $500, the domain was 40 bucks. It'll be owned by my existing Corporation. And so but you know, over time, I have a corporation, and it's several $1,000 a year in accounting. And I am spending several $1,000 a year on insurance because we are a services company, we are given the control over our clients social media accounts. So there's exposure from a liability and risk and so on. So, but to your point about getting started, services company is probably one of the easiest to start because you're paid for your time. So it's highly profitable, or can be depending on how much you want to charge. But if I was, you know, my first foray into to into entrepreneurship was the mentor business. And that meant you had to carrying inventory. And you had to carry, you know, the right size. And you had to carry what you thought people would buy, blue, and black and brown and all that.

Andrew Jenkins 22:33
And then I you know, I worked in menswear, in high school in the university and like, you had to take a different mindset is like, as I'm you're passing items of clothing through, there's a certain percentage of your inventory that will be sold at full price, then a certain percentage will be sold at 15 to 20, some percent off, then some will be sold at 50% off. And so then you average it out, and the approach that the retailer I worked for, they would so let's have 1000 pieces of clothing in the business, they put it down to averages, the average unit price of 1000 units was x, the average margin. And that's how they sort of like they did the rough math, to know whether they were profitable or not. And, you know, like I said, you get some stuff in it's September, it sells at full price, middle of the fall, it's discounted, and then January, you're blowing it out at half off to get rid of it.

Roger Pierce 23:32
You know, and talking to entrepreneurs, you talk about minimum what I would call minimum viable products. And here you are introducing a new division or product line or your YZ just putting up a webpage. Like I said, 40 bucks, not much. Talk about the importance of that you don't need to jump in full feet, quit your job, necessarily to get into business D you can do what you've done, and try it out first test the waters.

Andrew Jenkins 23:53
Well, this idea. And I mean, the idea is, so we do social media management for companies. But increasingly, and in addition to that, I do a lot of training of the use of LinkedIn and social selling techniques to financial advisors, mortgage specialists, entrepreneurs, and sales teams. But after all these years of the kind of training, it's the old adage, it's, frankly, it's every bit of training that's ever been done for companies. You have 100 people in the room 20 of them are going to take everything that they learned and they're going to start executing the first day after the after the training and they're going to stick with it. All bunch of people in the middle of the bell curve will dabble some of it will stick with it but again not not consistently or you know, a low volume and then others will like yeah, that was fine. I got two days away from from work for training, and they'll never Do it. And so that experience led me to believe that to come up with an offering for. And this is not meant to as a pitch to your audience, this idea of social media management for solopreneurs, senior leaders within an organization where we curate content on their behalf, and they can share it, or the next level of the services, we curate content gets approved, and we share it for you. And so that we keep your social presence active and vibrant. And we let the individual do their own commenting and that kind of thing. But the challenge has always been for them similar to companies to establish and sustain their own social media presence. So we're rolling out a program. And we're beta testing with a few folks to curate and distribute content for them as individuals. And the platinum version of it will be that once a month, we interview them for 30 minutes. And we take the 30 minute discussion, and we turned that into video clips and audio grams. So that they can, again, it's you know, oftentimes, and we're only human, we all struggle to well, what would I say? What would I share? And, you know, like, if you're a coach, you can talk about your coaching services and so on you. But oftentimes, you're better when you're being interviewed versus just staring into a camera or staying in a script you wrote? Absolutely. If it feels more conversational, you come across as more authentic.

Roger Pierce 26:49
So great service look forward to seeing that rollout after you prove the concept. With your your test. I love it. Very smart. Yeah.

Andrew Jenkins 26:56
So we'll I mean, but this to go back to your question, or this idea of, there's a kernel of an idea based on accumulated experience from client engagements is it's the cliche, I suspect, I see an unmet need. And so I'm developing a service and testing it out to see if there's enough people like that would say, Yeah, I have that problem in that area that I would love help with.

Roger Pierce 27:24
Watch what your customers want. And respond might be a whole new business stream there for you. I love it. Fingers crossed, fingers crossed. Watching the clock here, I want to get to some more questions for you. Because there's only so much we got to cover. But you know, what do you love most Andrew, about being an entrepreneur, and what do you in all honesty, hate about this life?

Andrew Jenkins 27:45
The the, what I love most is the autonomy. I've worked for numerous corporations. And you know, right now we're seeing in the news, all these layoffs from even the likes of Google and Microsoft, and so on. And I've worked for startups, and I've worked for big corporations. You know, I worked for Bell Canada, or largest telecom, I worked there for three years, my father worked there for 33 The promise of a career for life from with any one company just isn't there. And that's not a criticism of the company. That's just the nature of, of the environment. And so, I've and just my nature, I like new, I like being excited by my work. And when I worked in a corporate environment, that excitement wanes pretty fast. But that's me. And I'm not criticizing if someone is content and wants and has the opportunity to work for a company for 20 some years, and as happy kudos to you, you know, happy is the important part. That wasn't me. I now have a team of people that work around me. And so if I want to, so like for instance, I have a call today from 1230 to 130. And then I'm gonna go for a 5k walk and the beautiful sunshine that it is today. But then tonight, probably from 10 o'clock till midnight, I'll do some work. But that's my choice. And I have the freedom and the flexibility to do that. And that that's the key. I have the freedom and the flexibility to do that. I love and one of my goals with the business is to be able to run it from anywhere in the world. I've taught my class at U of T from my hotel room in Cancun, Mexico. So, I, I find that, you know, one of the best perks that I can dream of the The downside is that you know, all this freedom and flexibility Oh, there's because I didn't have freedom and flexibility in the early days of building my business, right? I made some sacrifices, I made mistakes. I made costly decisions, all hard won. And so yeah, there, you know, there were costs personally and professionally, in getting here. And sometimes many of them unforeseen. So, you know, and you know, I have children, you know, that didn't get as much time with me as that, perhaps they deserved. So those are all things you need to consider. Or, you know, maybe I shouldn't say maybe I know, I should have done a better job of work life balance, and trying to do that more now. And, like I said, taking a break to go for a walk in the sunshine. One, I mean, everyone should do it. But even if you're, you're working for a corporation is take that mental break that you need. So that I would highlight is just, you know, be mindful of the sacrifices you're making, and make sure that it's worth it. But, you know, what, what's the end goal in mind. And, you know, my father retired from Bell Canada at 53, and consulted for a number of years after that. I'm already past his age, and I'm not retired. So I look at my idea of retirement is going to be different. And I'm fortunate that I have a digital marketing company, where I can foreseeably keep running it for a number of years and run it from anywhere and feel sort of semi retired, we'll see. But it's also comes down to having a good team around me. And the last thing I'll say about sort of the downside, is making sure that you hire the right people. I've made mistakes in my hiring. I've lost clients because of people that I've hired. So like, that's a cost or a result that you never anticipate. You know, I know how I how I would behave, what I would say to a client what I wouldn't. And there have been times when people that are even have Hiva like are professional, highly valuable. But in a moment of poor judgment, say something in front of a client that has a catastrophic outcome. Oops, yeah. And the amount of time that you'll spend trying to smooth that over, and sometimes unsuccessfully, you need to be prepared for that. There are going to be times when someone is in a meeting with a client representing you, and you're not there. And hopefully you've hired right, such that they will be a proper representative of the company. But just a word of caution.

Roger Pierce 32:51
Well, I think that answers one of my last questions to which was was was you know, what, what's your advice for for someone who is a very, very beginning of this journey, thinking about it unsure? That's the name of the podcast sitting on the fence. What do you say to someone like that?

Andrew Jenkins 33:10
I, one of my favorite books is a book by Richard Branson called losing my virginity about his journey starting virgin, the virgin brand. And he had a his attitude in the book that was very clear was as long as he could manage the downside when he was thinking about a major decision, and what the possible implications are outcomes with me. His thought was, can I manage the downside of can I manage if it doesn't go the way I hoped or expected. And if he was confident that he could, he would do it. And in the book, he talks about the inaugural flight of virgin air was a Monday and the Friday before they have one plane. And the Friday before the inaugural flight of said plane of the new airline. They had an engine failure on that plane, oh gosh. And they had to get to the tune of a half a million pounds. A brand new Rolls Royce jet engine installed for Monday. And he found the money through his connections and so on. And they made it happen. And even just the way he he had this intuitive. He can see a situation. Like he started Virgin Records by selling records by mail. And he just had this innate way of saying okay, I've got records. There's the student magazine that he had started with a magazine first. And maybe I can marry the two ideas can I advertise in the magazine to get people to subscribe to records and it just put the two and two together. He wasn't certain that it was going to make money and it did and that's how Virgin Records started. and but you know, it's to some that sounds really risky. But you know, dip your toe in the water, test some ideas, ask a few friends and family, you know, would you buy this? I did a startup weekend a number of years ago. And you conceive of an idea on Friday and you had a mock up, or MVP by Sunday. And the team that won, when they presented to the panel, they just developed a concept for a scheduling app for restaurants. So that the manager didn't have to be the in between, Oh, someone wants to switch their shifts. And they went around to some restaurants around the university venue that there was taking place. And they recorded saying, Would you buy this kind of product? And they described the product? They said, Absolutely. Do you know about the amount of time that I spend trying to juggle the schedule of my of my waitstaff, and they got like five or six different testimonials of already they had market tested the idea, and nobody had spent any money and nobody had written any code. So anyway, it's a long winded answer to your question. Test the idea. Can you prototype it in this day and age with the internet and so on, you can throw up a webpage and say sign up for the waiting list and say, Oh, here's 100 people that are interested in what I'm thinking about offering. Can you make enough money from 100 people?

Roger Pierce 36:37
Hopefully, you can test the idea first. Can't hurt.

Andrew Jenkins 36:41
I mean, I, I am where I am just by sheer luck and circumstance. But now I'm in a position with Predictable Revenue. I can start trying different ideas without a lot of monetary risk, experimenting.

Roger Pierce 36:58
Yeah. That's great. Great advice. Test it. Once you've got the cash experiment to expand diversify. I love it. I love terrific answer. Thank you for that. You're very welcome. And unfortunately, that's all the time we have but I do want to give a another plug to Andrews. terrific book here. Social media marketing for business. I think you can get it on Amazon. Right, Andrew? Yes, or Kogan? page.com Kogan page.com. It's a great read. It's a must read handbook for anyone trying to navigate those choppy social media waters.

Andrew Jenkins 37:32
But not to plug the book so much. But for some people think because it's talking about if it gives them an impression that's only for big business. There's a great chapter on LinkedIn and personal branding. And even if you're a solopreneur there's a lot of value. And as well. There's helpful stuff in the book for as you grow too.

Roger Pierce 37:53
I love it. I liked it so much. I've got three copies. Wow. Thank you. Andrew, I want to thank you very much for sharing your entrepreneurial journey with us here today. It means a lot to me and our listeners.

Andrew Jenkins 38:05
Happy to to join you. It was great fun. Thank you.

Roger Pierce 38:10
Before you go, if listener wants to connect with you, what's the best way to reach you?

Andrew Jenkins 38:15
You can find me on LinkedIn. Send me a message and say, Wait, if you reach out to connect, just let me know that you heard me on the podcast.

Roger Pierce 38:24
Excellent. I'm sure they will. And our listeners. Thank you very much for being here. And be sure to return for more insights from the unsure entrepreneur. Thanks again Andrew. Thanks, everybody.