The Unsure Entrepreneur

Unsure Entrepreneur - Mathew Georghiou

SUMMARY KEYWORDS: entrepreneur, entrepreneurship, product, simulation, people, learn, business, failure, Mathew, experiential learning, customers, work, banks, lemonade stand, run, flight simulator, venture, world, side hustle, cash

SPEAKERS:
Mathew Georghiou, Roger Pierce,

Intro 00:00
You're listening to the Unsure Entrepreneur podcast with Roger Pierce. Whether you're scribbling business ideas on a napkin or wrestling with the "should I or shouldn't I" question, get ready to explore the realities, risks, and rewards of entrepreneurship as we share the stories, scars, and successes of small business owners.

Roger Pierce 00:21
Hi there, and welcome to this episode of the Unsure Entrepreneur Podcast. I'm Roger Pierce. I've known my guest today for many years, and I'm positive you're going to enjoy lots of valuable insights. Mathew Georghiou is a dynamic entrepreneur, engineer, writer, and inventor with a passion for revolutionizing business education and leadership training. He's the founder of five companies: MediaSpark, GoVenture World, Local Brand, Metal, and CleverToys.

Now, over the past two decades, Mathew has invested millions of dollars and countless hours into developing the most advanced series of educational games and simulations in the world. For example, Mathew's groundbreaking GoVenture programs have been adopted by thousands of schools, universities, and educators globally. His latest venture, Business XP, which we're going to ask him about, offers the world's first fully game-based experiential learning curriculum, positioning itself as an alternative to conventional business schools. Someone who clearly believes there's a better way to learn about business and entrepreneurship, Mathew's innovative approach to experiential learning has transformed traditional methods of business training. Welcome, Mathew.

Mathew Georghiou 01:42
Roger, thanks for having me.

Roger Pierce 01:44
It's great to have you here, and I've got so many questions for you. I'll start by saying you're such a prolific entrepreneur, and someone who I've long admired. I know you've helped thousands of people discover entrepreneurship and get better at it. Looking through your universe before this interview and catching up on all the things you're doing, you are relentless, my friend. You've created so many products, most of them intended to support new entrepreneurs. Beyond my little introduction there, can you explain in your own words a bit more about what you're doing?

Mathew Georghiou 02:19
Sure, yeah. I often say I'm going to have to be medicated at some point because I can't stop. It's a blessing and a curse to keep doing these things. My focus for many, many years has been changing how we learn, particularly business education, which is my real interest—entrepreneurship education. I feel like we learn better when we're doing it through experiential learning. The power of experiential learning has not been fully utilized or leveraged over the past many decades, and I'm trying to change that by merging gaming and learning to make things better for everybody.

Roger Pierce 02:55
We're going to dig into some of your great products and services as we go along. You and I, I think, are kindred souls—we share a strong belief in entrepreneurs and the power of entrepreneurship. I'm going to quote you here. You recently wrote, "Entrepreneurs solve problems, entrepreneurs drive innovation. Entrepreneurs take risks and invest in the unknown. Entrepreneurs create jobs. Entrepreneurs create wealth, and hopefully distribute wealth to many people, not just a few." Fantastic words. I'm going to reuse that if you don't mind. But why are you so passionate about entrepreneurship?

Mathew Georghiou 03:33
I think I'm mostly passionate about what I describe as the entrepreneurial mindset—thinking like an entrepreneur. Of course, most people will never be entrepreneurs. Entrepreneurship, you and I always talk about how hard it is, even though social media and humble bragging suggest that all you have to do is follow a recipe and you'll be successful. We know that's not accurate. I'm a big believer in the mindset—whether you become an entrepreneur, work in a nonprofit, a charity, or government, if you think entrepreneurially, you will do better for the people you're serving, yourself, your community, and everything around you. That's why I'm a big believer in it.

Roger Pierce 04:15
It definitely shows because your life's work is abundant. Every time I turn around, you've got a new eBook out, a new product, a new game, or a new service. It's like there are many of you.

Mathew Georghiou 04:31
I wish. The first thing I want out of AI is a clone, so I don't have to work as much.

Roger Pierce 04:36
You might soon have your wish the way it's progressing. Let's talk about the core of what you do: entrepreneur and business education. You've said you believe it's better to learn business skills through games and simulations rather than traditional book-based learning and lectures. Can you expand on that?

Mathew Georghiou 04:53
It's very much like riding a bicycle. You have to eventually get on that bike and start pedaling to learn how to do it. An example I often give is, let's say you had to fly on an airplane, and there are two pilots who have never flown a real airplane before. One pilot had studied all the manuals, aced all the tests, but never did anything other than traditional learning. The other pilot used a flight simulator and was the best at the flight simulator. Who would you rather fly on that first flight with—the book person or the person who used the flight simulator? I think we'd generally choose the person who used the flight simulator because it's the closest to the real world. I'm a big believer that if we want people to gain skills quickly and efficiently, we have to put them in situations that are as close to the real world as possible, and I think simulation and games do that.

Roger Pierce 05:39
Absolutely. Learn by doing. I'm going to dig a bit deeper. I think I got access to one of your games, maybe it was GoVenture, years ago, where you're actually transacting, building products, and pricing them. Maybe you can dig a bit deeper into the process of building these educational simulations and how you go about it.

Mathew Georghiou 05:57
When we build an educational game, we always design it from the ground up to be educational. Most games are designed for entertainment. I've written before, and I think you and I have talked about this, that all games are educational. It doesn't matter whether you're shooting aliens or flinging Angry Birds, your brain is always learning. The only question is, can the skills from the game be transferred to the real world? In most entertainment games, not many skills can be transferred to the real world. Some can, but not that many. But when you design a game specifically for education, your objective is for all those skills to be transferable. We start with that objective in mind and then try to build the experience of whatever it is we're trying to recreate, whether it's a leadership skill or an entrepreneurial skill.

In the example of the simulation you're talking about, we've modeled businesses like a restaurant, for example. So we have restaurants that are similar to McDonald's, Chipotle, Subway, Starbucks, and so on. They're not branded under those names, but they're similar in concept. You do everything in our simulation that you would do in running a real restaurant: order inventory, price your products, monitor customer feedback, adjust, hire employees, negotiate salaries, schedule them to work—everything you would do in the real world of business, you do in the simulation. That way, if you actually decide to run a business, you're more prepared than any other method possible.

Roger Pierce 07:27
That's just amazing. If I recall, the level of detail in this virtual world you've created is pretty impressive. I'm setting margins, ordering supplies, and things like that, right?

Mathew Georghiou 07:38
It is super deep. In fact, our GoVenture Entrepreneur simulation, which is one of several we have, is the most realistic small business startup and operation simulation that's ever been created. I feel confident in saying that because I've been doing this for 30 years, and it's incredibly granular and realistic. Let's say someone came to us, Roger, and said, "I want to run a restaurant, but I don't know anything about business. Will you give me $50,000, $100,000 to go out and start a restaurant?" And we say, "Oh yeah, sure, here's some money. Go start a restaurant. Don't worry about how it works out. Even if you fail, it's okay." How long would it take them to gain the skills to be confident and successful as an entrepreneur? From my experience, it takes years to reach that level of comfort.

Even if we could recreate the real world, it's just not feasible to do. But with simulation, we can accelerate that in a matter of hours rather than months or years.

Roger Pierce 08:52
I'm still trying to figure out how to be an entrepreneur, Mathew, so I need to take more of your games. Who's using this product, the GoVenture? I know it's one of your flagships. Who's buying it?

Mathew Georghiou 09:01
GoVenture is our product brand, under the company MediaSpark. If we focus on the entrepreneur product, it's interesting because everybody uses it. When I say everybody, I mean elementary schools, middle schools, high schools, community colleges, universities, two major banks in Canada, a major bank in the U.S., and other companies using it as a customer empathy tool. It's used at all levels of learning because it's realistic. Most educational products are narrow in focus, but ours is broad and detailed, with progression built in. You might ask, how does an elementary school student play GoVenture Entrepreneur when someone in an MBA program uses it too? It's because it has progression built in, starting very simple with a lemonade stand, then progressing to more comprehensive experiences. You can use it in a modular way that fits your profile as a learner.

Roger Pierce 10:16
A couple of things you said caught my eye—banks. You said banks are using it. Is that for their small business customers or their own staff and bankers?

Mathew Georghiou 10:23
When I originally launched this product, I thought banks would use it to direct their small business customers. A lot of budding entrepreneurs go to banks for loans and get rejected because they're not ready or too risky. But in terms of the ones actually using it, they're using it as an empathy tool. So, two aspects: one is an empathy tool, helping staff better understand their small business customers by putting them in the customers' shoes. The other is as a training tool for their staff to be more entrepreneurial and understand how a business works.

For example, franchisors could use it as a pre-qualifying tool for franchisees. There's so much you can do.

Roger Pierce 11:47
You raise a bigger question. There's no license for entrepreneurship—no official stamp that says, "Go ahead, spend your life and fortune, risk your family and relationships." We talk about this on the podcast. There's no permit to operate as an entrepreneur. It's a free market, and I believe in that, but boy oh boy, you have to get ready, don't you? And if your tools help people get ready before spending actual money and facing real struggles, I'm all for that.

Mathew Georghiou 12:23
There's so many mistakes you can avoid if you just do some prep in terms of your learning and the skills you can bring to the table. Unfortunately, I don't think a lot of people do that prep. Now, you and I grew up without the internet, where you can learn anything you want at any time. Now it's available, so there's really no excuse for not doing that prep. And if you do it, you'll save a lot of grief and maybe save your business. A small mistake can turn into a big mistake that's not recoverable.

Roger Pierce 12:52
I think I read somewhere in your universe that your products, services, games, and simulations help entrepreneurs address risk and failure. Is that right?

Mathew Georghiou 13:03
Yeah, I'm a big proponent of failure. As entrepreneurs, we fail every day. I call them micro-failures. Many of them are small and recoverable, but it's a constant series of failures and problem-solving. Our educational system is the complete opposite, creating a fear of failure. "You can't fail that test; you can't fail this course." It's all about fearing failure. But our lives, whether we're entrepreneurs or not, are full of failure. We'd be more responsible as educators and parents if we helped people learn how to recover from failure. Of course, we want to help them avoid failure, but it's inevitable. So, how do we expect failure, accept it, and respond to it? If education changed its mindset to accept failure, we would all be better off.

Roger Pierce 14:09
That's a fascinating subject. Can you dig a little deeper into how we do that? How does a new entrepreneur get back up on that horse? What can we do to learn from our failures?

Mathew Georghiou 14:19
Number one is to expect it, right? Expect it's going to happen. I'm the kind of person who's always planning—plan B, plan C, plan D. Not everyone is like that, and that's fine. Maybe you partner with someone or hire an employee who thinks more like that. I think planning can help. Using mentors, coaches, advisors—whether it's your accountant, lawyer, or others—can help you avoid some mistakes. But really, entrepreneurship and being successful in it are about experimentation, too. When you're selling a hamburger, what price should it be? There's no system of pricing in our world. There are concepts like cost-plus pricing or market pricing, but ultimately, you have to decide. But you also have to learn how to use evidence-based decision-making.

I think training our minds to use evidence-based decision-making helps us prepare for failure. But number one is to expect failure and then figure out what to do about it.

Roger Pierce 15:53
Everything you said is so on point. We do get nervous around failure, but if you look into the past lives of most of the world's entrepreneurial titans, they've all failed at some point. It's part of the journey.

Mathew Georghiou 16:08
Very few overnight successes. The overnight successes you hear about are actually 5, 10, or 20 years in the making. In the media, we like to talk about how good they are. Nowadays, on social media, people are rewriting the biographies of successful business people, saying, "This person saw this vision and made it happen." In reality, that's not how it happened. They did something, it completely failed, but they were able to pivot in time to make it successful. They didn't know it would be successful. So, you have to be careful with everything you see online. I often say, "All the business advice you get online, even if it's mine, don't believe any of it." It's all wrong because it doesn't consider your context. Your context is more important than all the business advice. Consider it, but never assume it's correct. Look at it through your lens and make the best decision you can.

Roger Pierce 17:11
Everyone's journey is unique, like you're saying. It's so important. You also mentioned recognizing that your challenges and failures are not unique. Others are going through them, too. They might not disclose them or put them on TV or the internet, but they're there. Have a council of friends in business, some small business buddies, some small business advisors. Join groups of small business owners and share your journey with others. You'll find out other people are going through exactly what you're going through, or something close to it. That'll help you address failures, right?

Mathew Georghiou 17:50
Absolutely. That authenticity helps build trust and helps build your network in a way that people want to support you even more.

Roger Pierce 17:59
All that said, my gosh, I just love talking to you about this stuff. What's the one mistake you think entrepreneurs make when they get into a new business?

Mathew Georghiou 18:08
I don't know if it's just one. I think lack of preparation is probably the most universal one. Even understanding the basics of accounting is crucial. I launched a course that's incredibly popular—30,000 students—it's free, and I teach accounting in 29 minutes. The reason I can teach it so quickly is because I use a simulation to demonstrate accounting in the context of a business, making it easy to understand. But I find a lot of people don't understand the numbers. We grew up in a society where people are scared of math, even basic math. In business, you've got to understand some basic math if you want to be successful. Yes, you can get lucky and still be successful.

I'll tell you a story about Richard Branson—Sir Richard Branson, one of the most famous entrepreneurs in the world. He said he never knew the difference between net profit and gross profit until he was in his 40s. He was already a billionaire, and he didn't understand the difference. He must have hired well—an amazing team that took care of that for him. But I think lack of preparation for even the basics is a big thing.

Roger Pierce 19:23
You're so right. What you're talking about is what I call Small Business Financial Literacy—knowing some basic numbers, margins, and profits, understanding gross profit vs. net profit, and being able to read basic financial statements like a balance sheet and cash flow. You don't have to understand bookkeeping, but you do need to be able to manage your money and recognize that cash in the till is not necessarily profit.

Mathew Georghiou 19:53
That's right. One of my big messages for new entrepreneurs is that if there's one thing you need to focus on, it's cash. Cash is everything. Is cash coming in, or is cash going out? A check in the mail isn't cash. A big meeting with your potential biggest customer ever isn't cash. A signed contract isn't cash. Only cash is cash. If you don't manage your cash and run out of it, you're done.

Roger Pierce 20:21
To your point, hope is not a cash flow strategy.

Mathew Georghiou 20:26
Just like the lottery isn't an investment strategy or a retirement strategy, right?

Roger Pierce 20:29
If I just win, if I hope enough, maybe the cash flow will improve. And I think that's the number one killer, which comes from the number one mistake, like you said, being unprepared and running out of cash. Businesses often overestimate revenues and underestimate expenses and get caught in between. "Oh, I'm sure customers will roll into my new business in the first month." What if it takes six months? This is why I love your simulations and experiential learning because you can play out all these scenarios right in your products.

Mathew Georghiou 21:03
Absolutely. You can go bankrupt in our simulation, but that's not a failure. It just happened—it was an experience. You didn't plan properly or make good decisions, but now you can learn from that, try again, and do better.

Roger Pierce 21:15
And what's the harm if you go under in the simulation? You're not out of pocket, right?

Mathew Georghiou 21:21
You can crash that airplane in the flight simulator all you want, but hopefully, you won't do it in the real one.

Roger Pierce 21:29
So important. You're touching on one of my favorite concepts—minimum viable product, or testing the waters first with a simulation, or whatever you want to do—all of the above. For example, with restaurants, most banks won't even lend money to new independent restaurant startups because it's too risky. So why do that as your first step? Why not start small with a simulation, or take it a step further—book a few hours in a food incubator or a commercial rental kitchen, sell your wares online, or at a local farmers market on Saturdays? See if there's a demand for your dish or product. Put up a simple web page, use Shopify if you're reselling products. Do these low-cost things to test the waters.

Mathew Georghiou 22:25
That's great advice. That's one of my big messages—if you're unsure about entrepreneurship, or even if you are sure, do what you're suggesting. But if you're unsure, do a side hustle, exactly as you're suggesting. I created a document with 76 side hustle ideas that I give away for free just to get people thinking about the opportunities. Wash cars, mow lawns, anything to get some cash. There are so many things you could do as a side hustle. Keep your day job, keep that income coming in, and test out your idea. It might work, it might not. If it doesn't work out, the benefit is you've learned and gained entrepreneurial skills in a way that you've never been able to before. Consider the fact that people pay universities, in some cases, tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of dollars to learn things that you could learn yourself just by doing a side hustle.

Roger Pierce 23:18
I know you're a strong believer in helping kids and young people experience entrepreneurship and learn about it at a young age. On Quora, you wrote, "Entrepreneurship is a mindset that empowers individuals to take control of their own future and helps them realize personal goals and objectives. It's all about freedom, lifestyle, self-confidence, family, community, and more. The entrepreneurial mindset is one of the most meaningful gifts we can give to a child." Just beautiful. So expand on that. I think you said the best age to introduce entrepreneurship is between 10 and 16. Is that right?

Mathew Georghiou 23:54
I think that's definitely a good age. You can start earlier. I actually wrote a children's book to help introduce the concept to very young first readers—just the concept of self-control and self-actualization before the word "entrepreneurship" is even brought into the picture. But I do believe that if you help your kids think entrepreneurially as soon as you can, as soon as they're ready, they will look at the world differently. They will look at the world with a lens of feeling more freedom and more control of their own destiny, rather than having to be on a path that society says they must follow.

When I was in school, I was good at sciences, so the natural path was engineering or some type of medical job. I ended up being an engineer, but I didn't love academics. I hated my university experience from an academic perspective. Luckily, I played sports, so I was good with that. But I think the earlier we can introduce kids to entrepreneurship, the better. One of the best ways to do it is through a lemonade stand. A lemonade stand has introduced so many people to entrepreneurship at a young age—it's a super powerful experience. In fact, I'm launching a lemonade stand board game in a few weeks because I want to make it even easier for people to experience that learning opportunity.

Roger Pierce 25:29
Like I said, you are prolific.

Mathew Georghiou 25:37
I'm trying. Get me some of that medication to slow this down because I need some time off. I need to rest this mind.

Roger Pierce 25:41
By the way, I didn't talk about your invention side—you'll be pleased to know I just ordered TrackJack off Amazon.

Mathew Georghiou 25:47
Oh, nice! Lovely. You read my story.

Roger Pierce 25:51
I'm looking forward to helping my son rejuvenate his Hot Wheels tracks. Tell us about that product.

Mathew Georghiou 25:55
Thank you. My son has loved Hot Wheels his entire life. He has special needs, so we're constantly playing with Hot Wheels. Because of his special needs, I feel like I'm going to be playing with Hot Wheels for the rest of my life, too. We found that building the tracks was time-consuming and frustrating because you're propping them up on your couch or boxes, using tape and everything to hold them in place. I thought there had to be a better way. I searched for a couple of years and couldn't find anything, so I decided to make something. I experimented, ended up making something, and it worked out so much better than I expected. I thought, "Man, I think I better sell this thing." Hot Wheels is the top-selling toy in the world, so I figured there might be a need. I manufactured the product, packaged it, sold it, ran into a bunch of hiccups along the way, but now I'm selling it every day, and I'm pretty happy about it.

Roger Pierce 26:51
Fantastic product. For those who can't picture it, go to the website. What's the website?

Mathew Georghiou 26:56
TrackJack.toys—T-R-A-C-K-J-A-C-K, just like it sounds. TrackJack.toys.

Roger Pierce 27:04
Or just search for it on Amazon, too. It reminds me of Lego—you build this little platform or bridge, stick your track on there, and it holds it perfectly. You're right—how many times have I propped up tracks on pillows and couches, only for the car to run off the rail because I didn't have it set up right? This will help.

Mathew Georghiou 27:22
Exactly. And then, at the end of the night, you have to take it all down because you want your living room back. And then, your child comes back the next day and says, "Let's build another track." It's like, "Oh man, here we go again."

Roger Pierce 27:34
I'm looking forward to playing with that. I'll let you know and send you a picture. We're winding down on time, but I want to ask you, before we wrap up, what's your overriding advice for a new entrepreneur—someone who's thinking about getting into this life?

Mathew Georghiou 27:52
The side hustle is my best advice. Experiment by doing something on the side. If you already have an income, don't jeopardize that. Keep it going and start a side hustle. It might only take a few hours a week. See how it works out—you'll gain a lot of knowledge and skills, and you'll learn stuff you never thought you'd learn. Even if your business isn't successful, the experience itself will be. If you do that and decide to move forward, do exactly what you suggested earlier—test, test, test. Get out there, whether it's a farmer's market or a Shopify store. If your business starts doing well, and you think it could be it, then you can start moving away from your other job and responsibilities and move into entrepreneurship.

I'll share a quick example. I gave this suggestion at an event I was speaking at. I said, "Find some time—if you're working 40 hours, you can find a few hours a week to put into something." Someone said, "What if I can't find the time?" I said, "You're probably never going to be an entrepreneur because if you did quit your job and become an entrepreneur, guess what? You're going to have to work a lot more than 40 hours a week." That alone may help you discover whether you're ready or not. But a side hustle is the best thing you can do.

Roger Pierce 29:15
Brilliant advice. With today's apps and everything automated, it's easy to try stuff out.

Mathew Georghiou 29:22
And inexpensive, too—you can get websites and everything made so inexpensively.

Roger Pierce 29:27
That's why I call this the era of the entrepreneur. Everything's aligning in our favor. Thanks again, Mathew, for taking the time to share your expertise. I could talk to you all day, and it means so much that you've taken time out of your busy schedule to be here. I really appreciate it. Before you go, give us a couple of websites or how listeners can get in touch if they want to connect with you.

Mathew Georghiou 29:50
Thanks, Roger. The best way is my personal website, which has everything. It's my last name, Georghiou.com—G-E-O-R-G-H-I-O-U.com. You'll see links to all my work there, and you can hit me up there or on LinkedIn. I'm on LinkedIn a lot and happy to chat with anyone.

Roger Pierce 30:09
Sounds good. I've been on your website, and it's a great gateway to your universe and all the things you offer, so please check that out. Thanks again, Mathew, and thanks to everyone for joining us today. Thank you for listening, and be sure to return next time for more insights from the Unsure Entrepreneur. Bye for now.

Outro 30:30
That's it for this episode of the Unsure Entrepreneur podcast. Thanks for listening. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss other candid conversations with small business owners. And be sure to check us out at unsureentrepreneur.com.