The Unsure Entrepreneur

The Unsure Entrepreneur Podcast
Speakers: Roger Pierce, Albert Luk

Intro 0:00
You're listening to the unsure entrepreneur podcast with Roger Pierce, whether you're scribbling business ideas on a napkin or wrestling with the should I shouldn't I question. Get ready to explore the realities, the risks and the rewards of entrepreneurship as we share the stories, scars and successes of small business owners. Hello

Roger Pierce 0:22
Hello and welcome to this edition of The unsure entrepreneur. I'm Roger Pierce. You're in for a treat today, as I'm going to talk with my good friend and the smartest guy I know. Let me tell you a bit about him. Albert. Luke is a seasoned executive and lawyer with over two decades of experience in business law, corporate governance and strategic operations. Currently, he serves as general counsel and Chief Privacy Officer at Bond brand loyalty, overseeing legal compliance, privacy and information security functions for the Global Customer Engagement agency. Now, Albert's past roles have included general counsel and VP operations at a video game company, Chief Operating Officer at a private equity firm, and General Counsel and VP of Operations at a digital ad network with a diverse background across technology, finance, gaming and real estate, Albert integrates legal insight with business strategy to help companies mitigate risk, ensure compliance and drive growth. Now, Albert is also known as the entrepreneur friendly lawyer, because he has a background providing legal counsel to early stage and high growth companies. Now, Albert has certainly helped me with plenty of legal advice from my own businesses over the years, but more importantly, he's become a very good friend. Welcome Albert.

Albert Luk 01:45
Thank you, Roger. Great day, and thanks for inviting me.

Roger Pierce 01:48
Just as we learned in your in your bio, you've had an incredibly diverse career, spanning everything from gaming to blockchain loyalty programs. What originally drew you to combining your legal expertise, entrepreneurial ventures, and how has that kind of shaped the way that you work today?

Albert Luk 02:07
You know, as usual, most stories, it starts from kind of family. I actually come from a family of entrepreneurs, so I very firmly sit in the statistic that if your parents are entrepreneurs, you're more likely to be an entrepreneur. My grandmother used to say I couldn't sit still as a little kid. So I'm a naturally, intellectually a curious person. We're fortunate in Canada to have a to live in a very dynamic economy with lots of very robust industries that I've been able to assist business owners. And I typically tend to say these days, I'm more of a business person who practices law than a business lawyer, so to speak. But you know, it's been a great journey understanding a whole bunch of different industries and learning from you know, not only when I my private practice, my clients, but you know, when I've worked in industry, my co workers and whatnot. So hoping to impart some of that, that wisdom, you remind me that line from the movie The law gets us into everything. You've got business wisdom, which I also value so highly. You really have keen insights and big picture thinking. Certainly you can help people with specific legal matters and legal strategies, but you really help entrepreneurs and business leaders mitigate their risks and develop strategies, don't you? You know, when we talk about protecting yourself legally, what we're really talking about is a much larger conversation about risk and reward, right? I mean, I've had the privilege of serving for very high growth companies. I've also invested as part of the companies I've been with, with with more mature companies, and you have different risk and rewards levers, so to speak. So you begin to understand, or I begin to understand, over the course of the career, is what lever do you pull, from the risk perspective to get the most amount of reward right. The example I sometimes use is, if you walk out of your house tomorrow, could you be hit by a falling plane? The possibility of exists, the probability of it if you don't live anywhere close to an air air path or an airport, probably quite remote. But unfortunately, there's enough horror stories of people who go, you know, and see legal counsel, and they're like, You shouldn't do this. You shouldn't do that. You shouldn't do that. I'm sure some of that advice is very well founded. But at other times, if you're a business owner and entrepreneur sitting across the desk from those types of doctor, no lawyers, as the moniker goes, you're probably scratching your head and saying, like, so then how does anybody actually end up growing a business at that point if you're not allowed to do anything, right? So that segues nicely. Let's start off easy navigating the legal minefield for new, first time entrepreneurs, you know, think back to folks you've worked with who are fresh out of the gate. What are some of the most critical legal considerations new business owners must address from the start, in your opinion, things like, you know, structure and contracts, IP, protection, that kind of stuff. You know, if you start your own business, obviously it's you right, split sweat and tears. But one thing I do end up saying to a lot of people when they talk to me about business, and I have the privilege these days of people just saying, kind of, just pick your brain. This is what I'm.

Albert Luk 5:00
Doing, you know, regardless of whatever business stage that they're in, you know, first question I typically say, what's the strategy and business objective you're trying to achieve here? Right? Everybody has a different objective, right? Some people, they're pursuing a passion, right? They have no ambition to be featured on social media. Some, you know, a billionaire business owner taking private jets and buying sports teams or whatnot, someone we've talked about quite often, like John Warrillow, right? Like he often talks about, like, look, there's a certain methodology you need, or a business to buy it, and and others are, you know, I'm taking some funding. And this is a, you know, very Canadian analogy, you know, I want to do a hockey stick growth, right? I want to go to zero to, you know, a million in three months, then that's not enough. I'll go for a million to five million in six months

or whatnot. So I typically start there, because you as the business owner, the one thing I do often talk about, especially if you're happen to be business owner who has, you know, a partner and children, is like, you got to think about protecting your own house, so to speak, literally and figuratively. You know, so how much money do you need to put away? What's your credit score? Like, I'm sure you've had other guests. I need to have a long conversation with your partner. If you have a partner about like, what is this going to be looking like from a risk perspective? You can describe risk in multiple different ways, right? Like, financially, maybe we may not be making as much in the beginning as when, when they had a regular outcome, office jobs, right? We may need to get a loan or remortgage the house. I typically, you know, say, like, what are you trying to get out of this? You got to start there, and then you calibrate your risk accordingly, right? You know, if you're 22 and you've decided to start a, you know, you're going to buy and sell Bitcoin, that's a high risk, high reward field. You're 22 even if, you know, if you lost your shirt, so to speak, proverbially, by 23 you still got a lot of life, so to speak, to make that up, you know, if you're 52 and you're trying to do the same thing, probably much longer conversation about, you know, stashing away assets, having a bright line in terms of how much money you're willing to put in it and whatnot, right? So, and then you kind of begin to work your way down. You begin to think about the nature of the risk of your business. Every business has a different risk tolerance, right? Based on that risk level, you're really looking at three basic tactics to look at to protect your risk from a legal perspective. The first is structure. Do you incorporate? Do you not incorporate? The second is insurance. You know, what type of insurance should you get? The third is, how do you limit your liability? From a contractual perspective, the higher the risk of your business, regardless of the revenue size, the more you want to use all three, right? If you're running a very simple business with low thresholds of risk and you only had a limited amount of funds, you probably want to go get yourself a decent insurance policy.

Roger Pierce 07:44
A few minutes ago, you talked about, have a plan to get to the plan. It's not about writing the business plan and opening the business on day one, how you're going to get to that day one, in terms of your savings and having conversations with your your life partner, maybe taking out loans. Get a plan to get to the plan, and then, like I said, to share all the 360 degree views of your business with the professional, right? Because they don't know your business as well as you do, and maybe there's some risks that you haven't thought of they can help you with. And vice versa, the two of you together can figure out what your risk exposure is.

Roger Pierce 08:18
And I really love what you just said about, you know, using the mechanisms at your disposal to protect yourself. Because, look, a lot of entrepreneurs, and I've been guilty of it before, too. Albert, as you know, charge in we don't think about this kind of stuff, do we?

Albert Luk 08:30
Very early in my career, I had a client who once said the only thing that happens fast in business is losing money, and obviously that stuck with me over my career. So to your point about plan, the plan like, sometimes you do need to go talk to someone, that someone may be a professional, that someone may be, you know, a mentor, that may be someone in your industry who has opened up the same type of business, and just be like, what's my blind spot? What am I missing here? For example, you're an employee, and you decide to now become a business owner. Obviously, you may not ask the business owner of the place you're an employee at, but you know, to someone else in the community, like, what's the difference between me cleaning houses versus me owning a commercial cleaning company? It's a very different point of view, depending on what side of the desk you sit in.

Roger Pierce 09:17
Research and maybe get yourself a advisory board of other business owners who can see things differently, right?

Albert Luk 09:25
I mean, the great thing about entrepreneurship, it's full of wonderful community members who want to actually help other people. At the end of the day, successful entrepreneurs are people who solve problems. They're always happy to help solve your problem and sometimes give you wanted and sometimes unwanted advice. But in my travels, most business owners and entrepreneurs, or unless, obviously they're a direct competitor, are willing to give you their two cents, so to speak.

Roger Pierce 09:47
Drilling down a bit more, are there any common mistakes that small business owners make that you can help them avoid?

Albert Luk 09:55
There's a couple of different things. I think the largest one is not understanding the tax structure you live in. And I know this is an international podcast, the Income Tax Act of Canada is literally over 1000 pages, right? I'm sure the US tax code's the same. I would love to live in a world where there was just a flat tax and you could just fill out a tax return with a one page tax return. We may put the accounting profession out of business as a result, but it would probably make everybody's life a lot easier, but the one thing I see more often than not, is that people, when they start running a business, they don't quite understand that the taxes, the tax implication of it. So I'll use a very localized example. In Canada, we have a value added tax of that if you're a business owner, you have to collect HST, right? And then you have to remit it to the government. The one thing I see more often that for a lot of startups, is they don't set that money aside. That money was never yours, right? In many ways, you are a unpaid tax collector for Canada Revenue Agency. More often than that, you hear horror stories of people who spent that HST, that retail sales tax, I guess, is another way of saying it. And then the government obviously is like, Where's my money? And people are like, What are you talking about? And obviously the government is they call it the Canada Revenue Agency. They have a very particular mandate, which is to maximize the amount of revenue that they collect right so more often than not, I see a lot of early stage people get in trouble there. This may sound surprising from a lawyer, but often I see people choose the wrong structure. So sometimes they incorporate too early, which creates tax issues, which creates additional counting issues. The final thing I would say is in terms of early startup issues is, I'll use the term in plain English, not legally, who you actually partner with. Many in early stage companies end up talking to lawyers, you know, six to 12 months in, and being like Roger and I had, you know, we went to the local drinking establishment, you know, we shared a lot of beverages together, and we thought we would create this great business together. And now here we are at day 180 and we can't even we can't stand one another, because I didn't realize Roger was this, this and this, and Roger didn't realize that I was this this, right? So your business partner, in many ways, you'll spend more time with your actual partner. Just like having a partner, you need to have those hard conversations, right? Like, are you a spender? Are you a saver? This gets back to my strategy comment, why are we in this right? Like, are we trying to sell? Those conflicts always do tend to come up because one partner says, Look, I'm only willing to put this much amount of money in and not a penny more. And another says, No, we need to go, like, fully to the hill. This is going to cost us money in order to get it to the level we want. There's like an inherent tension that emerges there. But just as marriage coaches, or, you know, tend to say, well, you need to have all the hard conversations before you, you know, go to the you decide to get married. It's the same thing with your business partner, you need to ease into those conversations, especially if you do a business with your friend.

Roger Pierce 13:06
I've been down that path before, as you know, with partners, and I get that question a lot too. Should I partner up in my business? Should I not? My reaction is always, you know what? If you can get the work done or get the goals you want achieved by outsourcing or by hiring, then don't take on a partner right away, because it is like a marriage. Like you said, it's often worse than a marriage, because it's your livelihood tied up there if things go askew. So can you get by without a partner for the first little while? Think very carefully before you go and split your company down the middle and all those decision make making responsibilities and headaches like you're saying, right?

Albert Luk 13:41
To dovetail your comment, why do you need this partner? Do you need this partner because they have sources of capital? If so, maybe just take it as a loan or issue them non voting shares, if it's a company, right? Do you need this partner because it provide a particular skill set? If so, to your point, can you outsource that or subcontract that skill set. I mean, if you need a partner, because, and I would kind of say what the elephant in the room is, it's very lonely to run your own business if you need a partner, because you need that sense of company. Think about forming peer mentoring networks. Think about having coffee with other business people in your community on a designated day, and you guys can all sit and talk about common issues you have, or you guys can all complain about, you know, the government or your employees, or you know, your supplier not coming through. It's 2024, you know, the city and age has all sorts of great resources for entrepreneurs. For any of those needs. There's a lot of money provided by various level of governments to small businesses because they understand innately that small businesses power the economy and they create jobs. So if you happen to be, for example, operating a business in more of a rural and not an urban center, many governments will obviously want to keep the people there, because people have been going to big cities.

Tons of grants If you're between 18 and 30, they're trying to cultivate a subset of younger citizens who will be business owners, right? And as the boomers begin to retire and sell their businesses, the governments clearly realize a vacuum is forming. They're willing to provide those resources in the public sector. They're capitalists, right? If they see an opportunity there to support the entrepreneur community, they'll provide those resources.

Roger Pierce 15:29
You touch upon a lot of great subjects there. I just did a podcast. It got released yesterday. Interview I did with two folks from the BDC, two economists from the Business Development Bank of Canada. Listeners, you can go check it out on the website, and it was based on a very interesting report they created about immigrant entrepreneurs in Canada and how they're changing the landscape of Canadian business. Fun fact, 34% of all entrepreneurs in Canada are immigrants, and that's a number higher than any other developed country. And locally, there's a lot of support, but there should be more. There's also problems, right? There's a backlog with startup visas and immigration laws coming into the country, and entrepreneurs coming to Canada don't necessarily have the knowledge of our ways of doing things and the regulatory challenges, all kinds of things we could be doing better to make it easier for immigrant entrepreneurs to get going.

Albert Luk 16:22
You make a very good point, because people who come from other parts of the world immigrate to Canada or again, immigrate to another country to start a business. You know, I think we tend to presume that how the infrastructure of how business works right? Our legal systems, our court systems, you know, our tax systems are like it's all negatively translatable to other parts of the world, but they're not right like we work kind of work in some fusion of an English and an American system, which is not the same as in all parts of the world.

Roger Pierce 16:52
Managing risk, what other things can we do to safeguard our business? Any common sense day to day stuff?

Albert Luk 16:59
Who your clients and customers are, is actually quite important. If you're a service company you choose clients who perpetually pay late, they do kind of silly things. They're always in, you know, litigation and lawsuits, they have a bad reputation on the streets, so to speak. It makes your life a lot more stressful. You know, if you're running a commercial cleaning company, you probably don't want customers who dump chemicals on their premises for a living, right? Like, if you have a team of cleaners, you're endangering, you know, you're literally endangering their health and safety. And obviously that becomes an employment retention issue, because then you become known as the commercial cleaning company that sends crews to buildings with asbestos falling down. I'm just making up an extreme example there, right? So, so client and customer selection is actually very important. And I know, in the beginning, you know, you're just trying to get the first dollar in, so to speak, but as people progress the business, and that's a very much a reality, right? Like in the beginning, you're probably gonna be like, Look, I'll just take on clients who can give me cash flow, right? But as you begin to grow, you need to think about the old saying in business, you use you, you let go of your your bottom 10% what is the bottom 10% of my customers are clients, right? The people don't pay well or on time, or just like sending you emails and texts at 11pm for no real reason, like those types of things, right? That's the largest one with brisk because, especially if you're if you're in a service company, you're serving clients like you are, in many ways, an extension of that client. If the client happens, they'd be quite chaotic. You're running your business in a quite a chaotic way too.

Roger Pierce 18:42
Don't be afraid to fire your worst clients. I love it.

Albert Luk 18:45
The great thing about business is you can keep them, pick and choose your customers and clients over time, as you mature. And as I said, I'm just being very realistic. In the beginning, you need cash flow so you may take on clients and customers you otherwise wouldn't. But the great sign of maturity, so to speak, when you start to make it, is you can actually turn down a prospective client or customer because they kind of give you the heebie jeebies when you meet them. And you know, we, most people, have a good innate sense of when someone creeps you out, so to speak, people that kind of align with your values or your business's values at that point, and just makes life a lot more stressful.

Roger Pierce 19:18
It's not all about legal risks. There's financial risk to starting the business. Of course, that can also come in the form of when customers are going to pay you. A lot of businesses are shy about asking for money upfront. Oh, I'll just invoice you when it's all done. Well, there's quite a big risk in that, isn't it?

Albert Luk 19:32
So this gets more to legal tactics here. It really depends on the nature of the business you you have, but cash flow is key. We work in an accrual bookkeeping system, right? This is kind of how our accounting works. Accrual is not cash based. There's, as always, accounting mechanisms of how you recognize revenue. The one thing I often tell people who are not very good with who are not financially literate or have no ambition to become a certified professional accountant, is look at your bank balance.

Months, in the beginning of the month and the end of the month, if it keeps going up and assuming it's your money, not the government's money, to use. To go back to my previous point, you're bringing in China, but I think to your point about this is where kind of lawyers can help is certain industries do require deposits before they begin work. So a caterer, I'll use as an example, you got to go buy a lot of raw materials in order to prepare a meal for a wedding. I need a deposit to cover at least all of my food and labor costs in the event that, you know, the weddings cancel at the end of the day, you're not you're not out of pocket. You haven't made any money, but at least you're not out of pocket. So there are certain industries that, more conventionally, do take deposits for industries that don't kind of have to be firm. I know we live in a society that isn't like talking about money openly, but you know as at the end of the day, cash flow is king, especially in very early stage. So if you do work in an industry where you have to take payment after the delivery of a good or service, obviously you got to just make sure that it's collected on a timely basis.

Roger Pierce 21:02
And you could mitigate that risk, like you said earlier, by being a little selective about the clients you take on. I do work with big banks like BMO et cetera. I'm not worried about getting paid by them, Mom and Pop. New startup customers come along want my services. No, I'm gonna need a deposit.

Albert Luk 21:16
So this is where the paper actually counts, which are where contracts count. By calling it paper, because when people think of contracts, they think of like this 10 page document. But contracts come in many different shapes and forms. You know, when I get a quote, you know, if you go to the garage to service your vehicle, and they make you sign up on the quote, you know, most people aren't looking at it, but there's terms and conditions attached to it. That's as soon as soon as you sign up on the quote, that's become a contract, right? For many blue collar service companies, like, your invoice will have terms and conditions on if you're very clear about, you know, payment terms, people have selective memories, at least, you'd be like, No, but you sign this right? Like, it's kind of a very clear cut dispute at this point, whether you sign it or not, do you go back to the deposit example, you know, if the catering company asks for 42% deposit, and they only deposit 30, and then they come back to you, and they're like, Have you started? You're like, where's the other 10% like, it's very clear, black and white. And if you become the trouble of some kind, then it becomes, well, maybe I need to return the 30% you gave me, however, and this gets a little bit technical, you have to basically say that you can deduct from the deposit any work that you've done. So as you go down this hypothetical example, you know, if they did go off and buy the caterer, bought some raw materials, and then, you know, the client basically ended up not giving them the deposit, depending on how the contract is worded, you could be like, Well, I did spend some money, so I'm not returning 100 cents on the dollar. Like, I'll return however much you deposited, minus whatever I spent to the extent it wasn't a perishable good that you bought. You may be like, you're gonna give this to you because you paid for it.

Roger Pierce 22:57
Great advice. And you remind me, you know, new entrepreneurs, you gotta have a budget for some legal fees. You got to have some budget for some legal services up front. It's going to pay you off down the road in terms of protecting your butt, things like drawing up professional contracts. Don't try to do it yourself. I know you can download all this stuff on the internet, but someone needs to look it over. If this is the basis for your transaction between you and your customer, invest in a good, solid contract. If you're partnering up with somebody, invest in a good partnership agreement. Right? Shouldn't be something you guys both come up with on the back of a napkin. It's got huge ramifications. Even your website Terms of Use, right? Can come back and bite you if you're not careful, these are some of the basic contracts that entrepreneurs need.

Albert Luk 23:36
Yeah, you have to think about what I call inside relationships and outside relationships. So your inside relationships are your shareholders agreement, your employment agreement, if you have employees, your contractor agreement, supplier vendor agreements. If there's sophisticated supplier vendors, they usually give you the paperwork and you negotiate off of that. Your outside agreements would be things like non disclosure agreements. It would be things like whatever contract you give to your clients and customers, so that that may be in a consulting business, a services contract that could be, if you're providing a good or service, that may be to use the examples, just Terms and Conditions sitting at the bottom of a court that they sign off on, right? So that's why I say, I don't like using the term contracts precipitous. People have a certain mental image of what a contract is, but we as regular people, sign contracts every day without thinking about it, so to speak. Right? So if you use the framework of inside versus outside, what the internal relationships versus the external relationships, you begin to calibrate what you need. I think the one thing I will say here, the issue as useful as chat, GPT and other AI is I probably just gave a free commercial to an AI provider.

Albert Luk 24:51
You should go chase them down for some sponsorship money. The work product I've seen has been so so the issue is that if AI.

They have no framework for the jurisdiction that you may live in. At this point in time, I'm sure the AI will continue to learn, and I'm sure in two years time, we'll all be working for AI. But at this point in time, what I tend to have seen in a work product is like it doesn't calibrate for what province or state that you happen to be in. The other thing is, it's not very contextual. It's learning from a whole bunch of templates. It can find out there you're actually, if better off going speak against the best interests of many a private practice lawyer, you're almost better off going to like to these -- again, I don't want to give free money to a service provider --to these, you know, legal template companies, but some of them I've seen are actually very good, and they're like, where do you live? Like, who's your customer? Is it a retail or is it a big business? Right? At least, that gives you some guidance at that point, if you if, if you can't afford, you know, in the beginning, if your resources are more allocated towards things other than a legal budget.

Roger Pierce 26:06
I love it better have something, but then nothing, or maybe not, relying on AI using one of these online, online template services. And then when you get a little more money in your business, you know, go to a real lawyer and get it, get it drawn up properly.

Albert Luk 26:19
If you want to be really scrappy, you know, you're working in opening a business in a particular sector, you can probably grab all of the contracts and paper in that sector and at least start looking at it and comparing and beginning to understand what convention begins to look like, because every sector has some type of convention. As I said, I keep using catering company, but if you're a catering company like Noma bats and I asking for a deposit. You're actually probably a bad caterer. You never ask for a deposit before you begin work, right?

Roger Pierce 26:50
Fantastic. Oh, my God, great advice. You know, we've covered a lot of ground today. We gotta head toward the wrap up. But you know, I want to ask Albert if you could share one piece of advice for an aspiring entrepreneur, something short and sweet, maybe that that you can share with us today, something that a younger Albert wish he knew that kind of thing.

Albert Luk 27:08
You're asking me to narrow it down to one. Hey, on the spot now. You know what it's it's both a piece of advice and an observation. You are your business right in the beginning. Whatever personality traits you have, good, bad and indifferent, they somehow show up in your business some way or another. The example that people use is like you don't wake up as Roger the person, and then you go out to your office at 9am you're Roger the business owner. You're two totally different people. You need to be like a brilliant Mentalist, or I don't know what the term is, in order to, like, flip a switch where your personality is completely different from your home life to your business life, you are who you are as a business person. So I think the one thing I would actually say to people, which is, like, probably a very odd statement coming from, from a from a lawyer, is like, invest in a high degree of self awareness, the tendencies I've seen in myself when I've operated or owned businesses are really a reflection of my personality, good, bad and indifferent, right? Because of my training, I tend to be risk adverse, right? So in businesses where I work with other people, I'm always the one being like, what about this? What about that? What about that? Right? Good, bad or indifferent, right? In some people's eyes, it could be like, well, you're you're looking at way too many contingencies and possibilities. And you know, in other people's eyes, is like, well, you being very thoughtful and thinking this through really deeply, right? So this is why I kind of go back to the if you can have a peer mentoring group, if you can form a mentor mentor network, you know, in the literature or mentors these days is it's not just one person, right? Like, it's just multiple people. To go back to my example, just coffee with other business owners. But it doesn't matter if they're in the same industry or not. We all end up having the same problems, right? Like, your people problems, your money problems, like, you know, yeah, cash flow problems, 90, I have to say 90% of businesses are the same, right, in terms of, like, the challenges that they face, right? And so that's the one thing I like, really know yourself before you get into this, because it's your business will be totally a reflection of you.

Roger Pierce 29:11
Your business will be a reflection of you. Know yourself before you get into it. I love it. I love it. Well, thank you the the entrepreneur friendly lawyer Albert, you've helped so many business owners over the years. I know you're going to keep on doing great work, but from the bottom of my heart, thank you for being here today and sharing your wisdom, your wisdom with our listeners. I appreciate it.

Albert Luk 29:31
That was a pleasure. It's always great chatting with you.

Roger Pierce 29:33
And before you go, if someone wants to connect with you, what's the best way to get in touch?

Albert Luk 29:37
Most likely. LinkedIn, so if you could just look me up, Albert, Luke Lucas bellow, UK, I you know, feel free to send an invite or drop me a line on LinkedIn. I'm happy to respond.

Roger Pierce 29:48
Excellent. Reach out on LinkedIn, wonderful. Thanks again, Albert. And that's a wrap for this episode. Be sure to return next time for more insights from the Unsure Entrepreneur.

Extro 30:01
That's it for this episode of The Unsure Entrepreneur Podcast. Thanks for listening. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss other candid conversations with small business owners, and be sure to check us out at unsureentrepreneur.com

Transcribed by https://otter.ai