The Unsure Entrepreneur

Unsure Entrepreneur feat. Sanders Lazier

SUMMARY KEYWORDS
carbon accounting, sustainable growth, climate impact, regulatory requirements, supply chain, carbon border adjustment, net zero commitment, financial institutions, mid-market businesses, climate intelligence, subscription model, usage fees, passion in entrepreneurship, work-life balance, hiring team

SPEAKERS
Roger Pierce, Sanders Lazier

Intro 00:00
You're listening to the unsure entrepreneur podcast with Roger Pierce, whether you're scribbling business ideas on a napkin or wrestling with the should I shouldn't I question. Get ready to explore the realities, the risks and the rewards of entrepreneurship as we share the stories, scars and successes of small business owners.

Roger Pierce 00:22
Hello. And welcome to another fantastic episode of The unsure entrepreneur podcast. My name is Roger Pierce, and today we're going to talk with the leader of a really fascinating business. Sanders Leger is the founder and CEO of carbonhound, powering businesses to achieve low carbon futures through carbon accounting and sustainable growth strategies. Carbon Hound is a credible, accessible and empowering climate action platform, and their software helps businesses measure and reduce their climate impact, which democratizes access to carbon management tools and provides affordable expertise for a low carbon transition. Sanders has experience across prop tech, Fin tech and sales tech, and I'm definitely going to get them to explain what those are. Sanders, welcome to the unsure entrepreneur podcast.

Sanders Lazier 01:12
Thank you so much for having me, Roger

Roger Pierce 01:14
Fantastic to have you here now you know you and I met at the collision conference. How was that show for you?

Sanders Lazier 01:21
Before, it was fantastic. We talked to a bunch of potential funders, which was my main focus this year. And we find that each year, depending on the maturity of the business, we go into it with a different mindset in terms of what we want to get out of it, although it's a little bit disappointing that it's moving to Vancouver next year

Roger Pierce 01:42
But are you going up there next year?

Sanders Lazier 01:43
Not so sure at this stage,

Roger Pierce 01:46
For those who don't know, this is like a startup and tech and investment conference for is it 40,000 people? I think, yeah. I think at least that. It's huge, yeah, down at the CNE grounds, and next year they're moving it to Vancouver. So if you're curious about this kind of thing, check it out. You know, conferences are great for all stage of entrepreneurs. I encourage people to go. You learn so much, you meet people, you find resources. It's a win. Win, isn't it?

Sanders Lazier 02:12
100% I think it's also just builds that ecosystem, right? It's less actually about the conference, and more about, how do we get everybody to agree on a time of the year that we all show up in the same place. And what you'll find is that a lot of folks actually get the value out of the events that are on the periphery, rather than the conference itself. So it's important as a community to have a time of the year we all get together. You know,

Roger Pierce 02:37
I've paid good money to fly to conferences with the objective of just hooking up with one key client, right? So sometimes, like you said, that kind of stuff on the periphery just being able to meet with people face to face, especially coming out of COVID. It's the magic of trade shows and and things that we get out of them. Beyond my introduction. Can you explain to me in your own words what carbon accounting is and what carbon hound does. It's a fascinating business. I've been looking at the website.

Sanders Lazier 03:05
It's always changing. When we started out, I think the big challenge was, how do we create a solution for businesses that aren't fortune 500 companies that can invest heavily in sustainability teams? The problem we were trying to solve was that, obviously, with a changing climate, there's changing societal impacts. There's changing physical impacts and financial impacts on businesses that aren't being accounted for. And so it's really difficult for businesses who don't really know anything about changing regulations, changing, you know, client expectations, changing financial expectations. How do we help businesses of all sizes understand those risks and those opportunities and make it simple for them to understand their next best action, whether it's meeting a regulatory requirement to, let's say, access a new market, or whether it's just understanding, you know, risks within their existing client base that they need to address in order to continue to serve them.

Roger Pierce 04:08
Okay, you touched upon two catalyst points there I want to dwell on. So regulatory requirements for the Layperson who doesn't know what the heck we're talking about, and how customers and suppliers are required to get into carbon accounting. Maybe can expand on that.

Sanders Lazier 04:24
Yeah, it's really interesting. So because you've got almost 200 customer companies that have committed to zip Pierce Climate Accords, right? So all those countries have committed to get to net zero, and as a result, you're seeing more and more regulation coming into play in order to help reduce the amount of emissions that these countries are emitting. They're honestly working on decarbonizing their energy grids, but they also need to look at other sorts of emissions too, and so as a result, you're going to see the 60,000 largest businesses in the world that are going to be regular. Good within the next three years. But it's not just the businesses and their operations within the four walls of those organizations. It's also their supply chain. So they're being asked to go into their supply chain and understand the impact of their supply chain on the climate. And that's really interesting, because all of a sudden, a lot of small, medium businesses who are in these supply chains, who's often, you know, these might be their biggest customers who are asking for this information are being asked to think about their business in a different way and compete, not just on price and quality, which is pretty traditional metrics, but also on the sustainability of their products. Because more and more there's, you know, carbon pricing mechanisms that are creating costs for their customers. So do business with organizations that don't think about their climate impact as part of their product development cycle. So that's a huge impact that we're seeing. But then you've also got regulations, the carbon border adjustment mechanism in the UK, which is really interesting, or in the EU rather, because what they're trying to do is stop all of these high carbon intensity industries like steel, for example, from just leaving and just importing it into the EU. So that's called leakage. So they're trying to figure out, how do we reduce the amount of businesses just offshoring their carbon tense activities. And the way they're doing that is actually by effectively, they call it a border adjustment mechanism, but it's really a tariff where anybody who's importing at least $150 worth of material in the into the EU that has any steel or aluminum or iron or hydrogen, there's a couple others as well, we'll have to report and effectively will get taxed based on the amount of carbon that they're importing into the country. So fundamentally that impacts these companies abilities to compete in these markets. And so how do we provide the technology to help businesses see the future and understand the upcoming risks and opportunities that come from that? The flip side of the coin is, obviously you've got, at least in Canada, a net zero commitment on procurement. From a government perspective, that's billions and billions and billions of dollars of contracts that are going out and increasingly, more and more points being allocated to sustainable attributes of your products, right? So how can we help businesses identify the risks that regulatory risks that we just outlined, and also understand the opportunities and how they can compete effectively and and compare themselves against their peers, to understand how they're stacking up?

Roger Pierce 07:40
So you're really helping your clients win more business themselves, because they're going to be compliant with their big, big customer requirements. So going to put that into an example. I love to sell to big companies. I work with some banks and some big brands, and you know, there's a lot of onboarding hoops to jump through in terms of supplier protocols. And this is a new one to me, frankly, and you're saying this is becoming the state of things for bigger companies, especially, to look down chain at their suppliers and make sure everyone's on board with the climate program.

Sanders Lazier 08:11
Yeah, let me give you a really interesting example, right? So please, aluminum, for instance, you know, if you're importing that into the EU you're probably going to see your prices to your end customer increase by about 45% so if we're not talking about immaterial impacts here, that's why. If, let's say you're selling recycled aluminum, that would have a price premium of about 22% compared to before. So you can start to understand you're just not competitive if you're selling certain products and you're developing them with extremely antiquated processes that aren't energy efficient. Suddenly, I think there's going to be a trigger of investment across especially companies like countries like Canada, where we traditionally under invested in productivity and in machinery, we're going to have to double down on that and really get into the next century in terms of our manufacturing technology in order to compete in these markets.

Roger Pierce 09:12
Wow, fascinating stuff. What's the size and shape of the typical client for you? Like, what kind of businesses are you working with?

Sanders Lazier 09:19
We love working with financial institutions. We love working with manufacturers, specifically like food and beverage as well as nails manufacturing, for the reason I just outlined before. But we've got dozens of industries, dozens of different types of customers. Ranges massively from a real estate company to a vinyl pressing company to business that makes syringes to I think one customer profiles. They're they actually sell like digital marketing services, right? So it's a huge mix of clients, and I think it's a testament to the broad. Ranging impact of this pressure that we're seeing right now. But what we've really noticed is that, ironically, when we started the product, we released it thinking it was me great for kind of one to 100 employee companies, and it was a little bit like Field of Dreams, except the alternate ending where nobody shows up. We've really moved up market to tackle what we would call mid market. So 100 to 2000 employees, 7 billion in revenue, and we found that these are businesses who are being directly impacted, because they're probably tier one, tier two suppliers to these large businesses, and their largest customers are asking for this data, and they don't necessarily want to invest two, $300,000 into building out a sustainability team themselves. So we really help those businesses compete more efficiently than their peers.

Roger Pierce 10:53
So you come in, make the process easier for them and make them compliant.

Sanders Lazier 10:58
Yeah, we automate all the data flows that come into the platform. And what I'm really excited about, which is what we want to work on next, which is how we combine climate and financial data and regulatory context into one place to create, effectively, a climate intelligence platform for businesses, so that they can get line of sight into the future risks and opportunities directly in our platform with that context of, hey, does it impact your margin of 45% in two years with these customers? Right? So really starting to help them understand the real impacts of climate on their portfolio of customers and quantify them so that we can help them build business cases to decarbonize their operations more effectively.

Roger Pierce 11:44
And the business model, is it a subscription based model, or is it a project based fee? How do you set that up?

Sanders Lazier 11:50
Yeah, it's a subscription based fee. And then we charge, we call usage fees, based on the amount of data that we're automating in terms of the entry of that data for you. So that's traditionally and then sometimes there might be if you wanted to buy other services, then then we kind of do project by project, or we also have a network of consultants and partners that we work with to help execute on different pieces of it, because we really focus on the, you know, how do we focus on the climate science aspect in terms of the actual, the numbers around The emissions and how we get that lower, the other aspects of ESG, there's other great companies out there doing good work on that, and we feel like we'll bring them in at the appropriate time if companies have a kind of a wider purview that they won't look at.

Roger Pierce 12:35
Just a side note on that, I love hearing about the revenue side of things, the revenue model. And for other entrepreneurs just starting out, you know, people get caught up in the lumpy cash flow, as they call it, but you've got a nice model subscription base, which means a fairly predictable monthly or annual income, plus it can go up based on usage what people buy. As you said, that's that's like the best of both worlds, isn't it?

Sanders Lazier 12:59
Yeah, a little bit. I think what we really want to focus on is, when we're thinking about who we're often competing with on some of these deals, it's consultants or spreadsheets, right? So what we want to be able to do is provide pricing structures that were flexible enough, because that's what consultants are really good at saying. You just need this piece done. I can just do that piece. How do we create a flexible enough pricing structure that allows us to compete effectively, so that as the scope changes, we and the value that we're adding changes, we can increase the value of what we're offering, which then enables us to compete more effectively.

Roger Pierce 13:33
Amazing. And how many clients are you working with right now?

Sanders Lazier 13:36
You've got about 80 clients. I think just it's a Karen 79 or something now, amazing.

Roger Pierce 13:42
Congratulations. So I want to go back to your Inception story and tell me this is a very unique business, obviously, in a growing industry. And very timely. What got you into all this? Sanders? Where did this all come from?

Sanders Lazier 13:54
I was working in the UK, and I was helping this business called octopus investments. They're digitizing a massive sales channel, right? And part of that was digitizing all the stacks and stacks of paper that we were receiving all the time. And so one of the benefit, side benefits of digitizing all this was obviously the lack of paper that was being used. So that's kind of where I started thinking a little bit more about sustainability. I've been thinking about my entire career, from the point where I was I was on the green team at Scotiabank when I was a summer student. But when I came back to Canada, I knew I wanted to do something, as in the UK for a while, and I knew I wanted to do something in sustainability, just mostly because I just saw the impact that it was having on the world. And the more I read about it, the more thinking about the food insecurity that will happen, you know, when we get to two degrees, and how that would impact billions of people who live on the coasts, and reflecting on my own life and the fact that I built a camp, and one of the motto that comes out of camping is leaving the campsite better than the way you found it. And so I kind of felt like we weren't doing. That as a society, and I want to do something to help contribute to that credo. And then we're also thinking about having a kid, and I had this image stuck in my mind. His name's Carrie. He's now 20 months old. By this image stuck in my mind in 2030 2035 he's reading his textbook, and he's reading about the climate crisis and the moments that we're living right now. And, you know, he turns around and asks me, you know, what did you do, dad? And for me, that's an image I just can't get out of my head. So, you know, when I get up in the morning, that's, that's, that's what I think about. And from there, I kind of looked at my family's in the commercial real estate business. And so we looked at, okay, how can I combine sustainability and commercial real estate? And so I was thinking to myself, well, that's cool. My brothers can they're sourcing these incredible opportunities. How can we create make them more accessible? And then could we actually decarbonize these buildings that they're buying and then sell them to large institutional investors and who are looking to decarbonize their real estate portfolio, right? So that was the initial idea. It was going to be half a million bucks just to pay the lawyers and the accountants to set up the funds. So I thought that was a pretty expensive test to run. But at the same time, when I was looking at the decarb side of things, what I noticed was that everything I could find was either a free resource. And there's 42 of these different vendors that I was looking at, and they're either in three buckets, they're free, they're incredibly expensive pieces of software that were designed for large businesses and designed for experts to use, or there were consultants, which were obviously quite expensive and manual processes. I kind of looked at this and said, Okay, 500k and all this expensive this side, or I'm actually a software person. So where is the QuickBooks for carbon? That's really where carbon has started, and doing some research into it, and looking at this climate transition, saying, like, Oh my God, look, 50% of the GDP and 50% of employees work at businesses that are, you know, 500 employees or less, if we don't help give these businesses tools, the rising tide is not going to bring up all ships. There's going to be very clear winners and losers in this energy transition, and we can't have it segmented 5050 because we can't have that's happening in the US, where climate becomes a political issue and a wedge issue, where people feel like they're have nots and haves, right? We need to create a solution that helps empower businesses of all sizes, so that we can create alignment on the opportunities that are coming from climate action, rather than focusing on what's being lost as a result. And so that was the core mission of carbon hound, was, how do we give everybody and democratize access to world class experience and software solutions to help with their business challenges as it relates to climate change.

Roger Pierce 18:01
The QuickBooks for carbon, yeah, that was a catchy one. It worked. It stuck with unfortunately,

Sanders Lazier 18:09
we realized that small businesses weren't being impacted and pressured enough, and they weren't being asked to justify their green claims. And so we had built a solution that we wanted to be very high integrity, because we feel like that's really important to the long term value that we're generating for our clients, because we don't want to be accused of greenwashing. What was interesting was that most SMEs are just happy to feel like they're doing the right thing by buying sustainable cotton or what have you, rather than actually doing the math and figuring out how much better that actually is or isn't from a perspective. So looking up market and finding out, okay, who are the people who actually care about high integrity and automation and who want to do something about this because they're feeling pressure from stakeholders, whether it's investors or customers, and that's how we started to find the market that we're in today.

Roger Pierce 18:59
Sounds like you've got a slam dunk. It's not only a very viable business model, it's totally on trend. It's leading a trend, and it's your passion.

Sanders Lazier 19:12
Yeah? Well, it helps, as I'm sure you're aware, Roger, when you're starting a business, if you're not passionate about it, you're not going to last very long, because there's definitely, it's a roller coaster.

Roger Pierce 19:22
So what do you say to an entrepreneur who says, Oh, I've got this great opportunity, Yeah, I'm okay with it, you know, I can make a lot of money out of it, but they're not really following their passion. How important is passion in the equation to you?

Sanders Lazier 19:33
You have to be passionate about some aspect of it, right? So I think you, even if you might not be passionate about, let's use the example of our business, if not passionate about climate change, if we're hiring a developer, we want them, at the very least, to be passionate about solving a really interesting data problem. How do you find the pieces? I think you'd be passionate about the pieces of the puzzle. In terms of, if I'm not passionate about the space and I. Passionate about the problem that I'm solving specifically in my role. And if I'm entrepreneur and I'm not passionate about the project that I'm solving, then I guess you have to be passionate about making money. There'll be some sort of energy behind the business. Because I think increasingly when you look at marketing from small and large businesses, consumers and customers are really looking at authenticity as a key component to that brand, and if you can't sell that as a founder, then you're really going to struggle not only to raise money, but to sell your product in general, and to create followership that's so critical in the early stages of your business life, I'd say, like, if you don't have passion for it, then you're truly starting at a huge disadvantage.

Roger Pierce 20:54
And it keeps us going, doesn't it, over the rough times which always happen any business life cycle between those startup years in particular, people don't understand this. Don't have a small business, but I wake up in the morning enthused. I can't wait to get to work, and the clock moves too fast. You feel the same way?

Sanders Lazier 21:10
Yeah, I think there's some days where it doesn't feel that way. But I think the best part of starting your own and obviously I think there's different stresses when you're a CEO and founder of a business in terms of the monetary stress, the stress of making sure people are happy and making sure that they're being taken care of, and that you're executing them for your clients. And so there's lots of things that are going on your head, but I think at the end of the day, the best part is that you get to choose who you get to work with, and walk into work every day with people that are working on this mission with you, and I think that's a really humbling thing as a founder, I think is finding these people who also believe in what you believe right when you're sitting at a desk with a whiteboard in front of you and and nothing but a pen and you're just a guy going for a walk. So for me, I think what inspires me is it is my team, and then the people that I get to work with, and that's really what gives me my energy, because I feel like there's a mission, there's a focus, and there's momentum, and it's really fun working with people on problems like that.

Roger Pierce 22:14
And how big is the team right now?

Sanders Lazier 22:15
We're seven right now.

Roger Pierce 22:17
Yeah, awesome. Downtown Toronto. Those of you can't see it, I can see where he is. He's got City Hall, the old city hall, right behind his shoulder there. It's great. So you mentioned stress. I got to just segue to that for a second. That's a big issue for entrepreneurs. You know, burnout, overworked, overstimulated, too much coffee. I mean, the average entrepreneur works, you know, 70 to 80 hours a week, definitely over 60 hours a week. But it's not just about the hours, it's about the stress, like you said, the financial responsibilities. You're leading a growing team. How do you deal with that? What do you do to keep yourself in a calm zone?

Sanders Lazier 22:54
It's hard. I think I'm still trying to figure out I don't have all the solutions, but in terms of things that I'm trying, I think meditation can be quite helpful. Any sort of daily ritual I think really helps. And for me, that's making sure that I spend that 630, to eight time slot with my wife and kid, making sure that I've got the time to read him his bedtime story and spend a little bit of quality time with him. I believe there's something meditative to that as well. So I think everybody will have their own thing. For some folks that might be working out or going for runs or what have you, but I think you really just have to figure out what it is that you're going to commit to, and then just make sure that when you get busy, it doesn't just fall off. Because I think that's the easiest thing to happen is when you get busy, it's hard to especially when you're entrepreneur, there's so many different things that you can do. It's understanding how to say no to those sometimes, and being able to ensure that you're, you know, running the marathon rather than sprinting the 100 meter race. And then, frankly, just when you start feeling that giving yourself you know you need to take a Friday off to take a long weekend and decompress a debt. Just do that, because if you're not at your best, then the whole company suffers. And I think that's the level of responsibility that I kind of felt ever since I was a first in the leadership role another startup where if I'm not at my best, there's actually material impact the business. And so understanding that and trying to safeguard that, not just for you, but to make better decisions that impacts everybody else's employment and the success of the company.

Roger Pierce 24:34
You got to pay attention to yourself. You got to You're right. You got to protect your health. You got to have work life balance, whatever that looks like for you. And you know, pay attention to one of the beauties of being self employed is you can kind of work the way you want. You've got your priorities with your family. That's great. Takes a little time for some mental, mental well being. One of my favorite fun facts I heard the other day Jeff Bezos, and you know, he's getting older, he admits that it doesn't work. Crazy. Yeah. Works. Doesn't work crazy, as people say, but he says, I have my most important brain functioning meetings at 10 o'clock before lunch. You know, 10 o'clock to 12 o'clock in the morning, because that's what he's sharpest. He's got the most mental alertness. And I'm trying to make sense sure there's some pretty big meetings, important decisions happening in his world too, right?

Sanders Lazier 25:21
So, yeah, I mean, he's trying to do a bunch for climate. He's trying to figure out AI. He's trying to get to Mars. So yeah, he's got a few things on his plate,

Roger Pierce 25:30
what to do with the next ten billion that kind of thing. You, I saw your profile too. You, you studied entrepreneurship. You've got an MBA, but you studied entrepreneurship at University of Oxford. Yeah, it's

Sanders Lazier 25:43
kind of funny, isn't it? You go to the oldest place in the world to study entrepreneurship, which is, you know, inevitably, quite a new concept in some ways, in terms of how fast things move. So I should, I think the most fun I had at Oxford was, was playing on the volleyball team there with a bunch of guys who, because the really cool thing about that school is that you'll sit down at the pub, and the person you're sitting next to will be working on quantum mechanics. And then the person next to them will be looking at, you know, medieval power, and like, how they generated power in medieval ages. And the next person will be talking about, you know, quantum computing. So we'd be in the bus on the way home, and you'd be talking to a world expert in cyber security. And then, you know, the guy next to him, he now, like, he's, he's a one of the lead world researchers and machine vision, right? So it's, it's really cool to get exposed to all these different people who with these levels of intelligence and empathy and, you know, expertise that truly opens up your mind a little bit further. And I just called myself the dumb one of the group, because they're all doing their PhDs, and I was just there for my MBA. So I'd say for me, like the MBA is obviously the meeting people, and you learn a lot from your professors, but just having that community experience, I think, and building that connectivity with everybody else's is really what is most exciting about it. To me.

Roger Pierce 27:16
Do you encourage entrepreneurship studies? It's still a relatively new field of study. I

Sanders Lazier 27:19
think you're probably better off doing it rather than studying it. I would say that it's helpful to study but I spent my whole career knowing I wanted to start a company, and I didn't start it until the age of what was it? 33 in my head, I was thinking, I'm going to collect all these different experiences. I'm going to learn about sales, and then scale sales teams, and I get to learn about product and then, and then I'll be ready to start my business. And I think while that's really helped, and I think there's lots I've learned from my previous experiences, there is a part of me that just wishes that I had just gone for it much earlier and been through this process, you know, three or four times by the time that was my age, rather than kind of starting at 33 but I think there's pros and cons to both, but there's no substitution for just taking that first step. And it's also the hardest part, because I think a lot of at least me, you know you struggle from imposter syndrome, and you know you don't know if you can actually do it. And I just did it right, like I'd never done any work in climate before. I went to night school and earned at U of T and my first models I built. I ran them past my professor, and he helped me out to validate them and and that was the beginning of the journey, no matter what it is, except if it's something in maybe deep technology where there's a massive technical requirement to it, just take that first step and keep taking one step forward, and then I think you'll find that you'll be in a place that you can expect that's terrific.

Roger Pierce 28:49
There's never one way to achieve a result is there. Everyone's got their own choices and their own path. Some people like to study first and get all those skills in place and then take the leap. Others go through trial and error, which I guess is what I've done. You are such a source of wisdom and inspiration, and we're going to wind things up here in a minute. But can you think about one piece of advice for someone way back your situation years ago, starting out an aspiring entrepreneur, someone who's thinking, Should I do this? Shouldn't I do that? Should I not do it? What would be your advice, Sanders, to someone at the early stages of this process

Sanders Lazier 29:28
I think first and foremost, you want to really make sure that you're passionate about the problem that you're trying to solve so and make sure you really understand it like spend the time do all the groundwork before even building anything, do all the groundwork of talking to potential clients, really understanding what their challenges and pains are, and get yourself to the point where you really have to convince yourself at the end of the day, when you're starting a business, right? Is this the opportunity I want to spend my time and money on? Is this something that I want to commit my life to for the next 10 years? On one hand, you have to deal with the thought. You have to you're trying to manage the risk of, this is 10 years of my life, potentially. On the other hand, it's important just to take it one step at a time and have those early conversations, get somebody who's interested in the problem that you're working on, find great people to work with. Don't compromise on anything when it comes to hiring the best that you can possibly find, or just finding co founders or collaborators that you can work with, because it's going to be a marriage and you're going to be in it as probably hard to get out of the marriage if it doesn't work out. So really, make sure it's not your just your best buddies. It's like, who are the people that are truly world class, that can help push your business forward and push your idea forward and put you in the best possible chance to succeed. So spend the time with the customers, and spend the time making sure that you make great decisions in terms of your initial team, and then everything will be a heck of a lot easier. Get started. Just do it like just stop thinking about it and just, you know, you can go on to survey monkey and for 100 bucks, do a survey of a bunch of you know, of any target audience that you want, and start to get feedback on your ideas that you have like it genuinely doesn't take much to start to do that research and get real quantified data to support your idea and start to build that confidence.

Roger Pierce 31:19
Terrific. Great advice. Thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate it. Well, listen unfortunately, and I could talk to you for hours more, but that's all the time we have. I want to thank you, Sanders, for sharing your entrepreneurial journey and your experiences with us. It means a lot to me and to the listeners. But before you go, if someone wants to connect, is there a preferred way to get in touch with you.

Sanders Lazier 31:41
Yeah, shoot me a connection on LinkedIn, Sanders Lazier, or just come to carbonhound.com and we'll make sure that we take care of it.

Roger Pierce 31:50
Great name. Love the name Carbonhound. That's super name.

Sanders Lazier 31:53
Yeah, it does what it says in the tin. Yeah,

Roger Pierce 31:55
It's perfect. Well, listen, so much fun talking to you. Congratulations on your success, best wishes for future endeavors, and thank you again for spending your time with us here today. Thanks so much for having me, Roger. And to our listeners, thank you for being here, and be sure to return next time for more insights from the unsure entrepreneur. Bye for now,

Outro 32:18
That's it for this episode of The unsure entrepreneur podcast. Thanks for listening. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss other candid conversations with small business owners, and be sure to check us out at unsure entrepreneur.com you.